tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8670812027273632828.post5593214168393740407..comments2023-11-02T06:50:42.777-07:00Comments on billierosie: MARQUIS de SADE; JUSTINEbillierosiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00288997506566830393noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8670812027273632828.post-89835255238063235462015-04-20T10:27:16.654-07:002015-04-20T10:27:16.654-07:00I really enjoyed this post! I've had a lot of ...I really enjoyed this post! I've had a lot of trouble coming to terms with De Sade in the past. I've enjoyed parts of Philosophy in the Bedroom but large parts of his writing seem to be almost unapproachably alien to be. I feel like he was a kindred spirit of sorts which makes me feel bad that I find so much of his work almost unreadable. Of course, part of this might be due to my reading whatever translations I happened to run into rather than seeking out the best versions.<br /><br />What versions did you use as you researched this post?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8670812027273632828.post-24609665574748520142013-11-28T10:56:44.752-08:002013-11-28T10:56:44.752-08:00Thanks Richard...yes, de Sade certainly is deservi...Thanks Richard...yes, de Sade certainly is deserving of his time in the spotlight. Like the old gods of ancient Greece, de Sade empowers our imaginations, our fantasies and gives us permission to think the unthinkable. billierosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00288997506566830393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8670812027273632828.post-79784707310288393042013-09-03T05:47:02.215-07:002013-09-03T05:47:02.215-07:00I once read Justine while I was sitting in a long ...I once read Justine while I was sitting in a long mixing session in a music studio, and was far more involved with the content of the prose than the content of the studio session. <br /><br />There is no doubt in my mind that the man was both an imaginative revolutionary and a beast. It is his imagination that lives on though, and regardless of his real life behaviour, the work deserves to be read and celebrated as representative of a world of equality and satire of the highest order to dethrone the moralists. Today we are still floundering with concepts like 'women's pornography' rather than accepting and exploring our deepest selves. <br /><br />Great piece!Richardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8670812027273632828.post-54567634615099830852013-08-22T05:39:44.359-07:002013-08-22T05:39:44.359-07:00Yes, de Sade's sex scenes, which are intended,...Yes, de Sade's sex scenes, which are intended, I think, to arose and inflame do come over as rather repetitive and boring to the 21st century reader. And I think that you are correct, Dark Scribe, de Sade is a provocateur with his own agenda.<br /><br />Still, he is an important part in the history of pornography -- just a very small part. I was going to say that I don't think he's going to incite anyone to a life of depravity -- then I recall that the depraved murderers Ian Brady and Myra Hindley were avid readers and disciples of de Sade...billierosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00288997506566830393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8670812027273632828.post-464899350597171022013-08-21T12:24:36.110-07:002013-08-21T12:24:36.110-07:00There is evidence that taking pleasure from receiv...There is evidence that taking pleasure from receiving or giving pain goes back much further...I seem to recall the Romans had some very kinky practices? It is only when we have the evidence gained from cultures who used the written word to "explain" these things does it come to light. Having looked very closely at de Sade's somewhat prosaic ramblings I have the distinct feeling he was deliberately trying to shock (a typical provocateur of the day?) in order to highlight the restrictions imposed by the Church.<br /><br />As to its relevence today...all I can say is that most exponents of the sadistic arts today would consider it tame.DarkScribehttp://www.thedarkscribe.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8670812027273632828.post-91343340731724006072013-08-20T05:10:58.646-07:002013-08-20T05:10:58.646-07:00My Art Historian friend,Jan, says:
"Your Sad...My Art Historian friend,Jan, says:<br /><br />"Your Sade entry (and the comments) is intriguing, as is de Sade himself. I don’t think of him as a pornographer but more as a philosopher ridiculing the Enlightment. He particularly laughs at the also ironic phrase of Voltaire in “Candide”: “All is for the best in the best of worlds!”. Obviously de Sade turns this ridiculous, “reasonable” optimism upside down by stating that manhood is criminal, God created us as criminals, and that destruction and depravity is obeying His laws –so only “backwards sex”!. In that sense he introduces Romanticism.<br /><br /> As for the sex, the 18th Century was a very anal one, everyone doing enemas (Voltaire on a daily base), and the male and female buttocks being considered the most exciting part of the body. You only have to look at all those Rococo paintings... Did you know that the word “bugger” comes from “Bulgarian”, as they were considered sodomites? <br /><br /> de Sade himself was accused two times in his life for sexual crimes, but behind his imprisonment and stay in an asylum was certainly his family who wanted to get rid of him. And as you say, his sex scenes can be repetitive and even boring compared to everything we have free access to in these days."billierosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00288997506566830393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8670812027273632828.post-52406080725039879332013-08-19T10:38:28.003-07:002013-08-19T10:38:28.003-07:00De Sade's work could be read as a satirical ex...De Sade's work could be read as a satirical expose of real power relations: Justine the devout, conventional maiden is constantly abused and convicted of crimes she hasn't committed, while her sister Juliette understands how the world really works, so she gets away with numerous crimes. Many readers would agree that the extreme social hypocrisy in these novels still exists.<br />De Sade's real behaviour is more troubling. By all accounts, he didn't practice or advocate consensual BDSM. This is why many people who are aware of the facts of his life see him as an upper-class abuser with a huge sense of entitlement. (Ironically, he wasn't popular with the ancien regime OR the revolutonaries of his time.)<br />De Sade's "sex crimes" are especially murky because he was accused of anal sex, which was illegal in his time. (Lord Byron was also accused of that by his bride Isabella.) The association of "buggery" with male/male sex seems obvious, so this law might have been a thinly-veiled means of persecuting gay men, even though there were other laws for that purpose. I suspect that women who accused men of that might have seen the law as a means of fighting back against sexual assault in any form, which was probably harder to prosecute as such, especially against a nobleman. (Men had a legal right to rape their wives and a kind of implicit right to rape their servants, but not to commit "perversions.")<br />The debate goes on.Jean Robertahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08805088081675965859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8670812027273632828.post-17872178956936049972013-08-19T04:01:55.384-07:002013-08-19T04:01:55.384-07:00I think that de Sade was indeed a twisted pervert ...I think that de Sade was indeed a twisted pervert -- but as for people who get a weird pleasure out of hurting others, which certainly seems to sum up de Sade -- there are still people whose life ethos to be the recipient of pain and/or humiliation. Submissives -- it is well documented that they actually control the various scenarios in a Dominant/submissive relationship. <br /><br />I am not talking about actual abuse, and I don't believe that de Sade was either. I am just wondering if his work informs a BDSM relationship as a catalyst for play.<br /><br />Of the two submissive women that I know well, their need for spanking/whipping is very deep rooted and goes back as far as they can remember, even into early childhood fantasies. Certainly, at that time in their lives they had never heard of de Sade -- so where do these needs come from? Perhaps a psychologist could work it out -- I don't have those skills.billierosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00288997506566830393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8670812027273632828.post-1271947777022105762013-08-18T10:27:50.523-07:002013-08-18T10:27:50.523-07:00perhaps someone should have beat the coprophilia o...perhaps someone should have beat the coprophilia out of deSade. A taste of his own medicine.... It's so easy for some to fantasize about hurting others and convince themselves they are really delivering freedom from convention and pleasure, when all that's actually happening is abuse. I don't know the mystery of deSade, but I suspect he was indeed just a sadistic pervert.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8670812027273632828.post-77606235207399228712013-08-18T04:02:55.589-07:002013-08-18T04:02:55.589-07:00Thanks Jean Roberta! He certainly leaves a strange...Thanks Jean Roberta! He certainly leaves a strange taste in my mouth and he is one scary guy -- but I think that the only way to deal with him, for me anyway, is to laugh at him. And I do agree with you about translations -- how wonderful it would be to read Dostoevsky in his own language. I recall reading that Nabokov once said of LOLITA, that he resented having to write it in an inferior language. He had to write it in English to get it out there...billierosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00288997506566830393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8670812027273632828.post-11909233127102509772013-08-17T10:03:23.497-07:002013-08-17T10:03:23.497-07:00Billierosie, you've just summed up my own thou...Billierosie, you've just summed up my own thoughts about de Sade. His writing is so over-the-top (and the combination of extreme "torment" and devil's-advocate philosophy looks so strange to modern eyes)that it's hard to know how seriously to interpret it. What concerns me is his actual behaviour -- apparently his wife couldn't bear to live with him, and he was charged with trying to poison a woman who has been variously described as a "maid" and a "prostitute." (But whatever she did for a living, she didn't deserve to be poisoned without her consent!)Sometimes I think the only way to get a grip on de Sade would be to become fluent in French and read his work in the original.Jean Robertahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08805088081675965859noreply@blogger.com